Showing posts with label atheism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label atheism. Show all posts

Thursday, June 05, 2025

A partially failed refutation of Gödel's logical proof for the existence of god

 I had heard of his proof before, but never actually looked at it.

Atheology, which gets updated occasionally and is also on Substack, actually offered up a refutation.

And, even my first, partial look said that said refutation wasn't perfect.

My comment.

I am certainly not here to support Gödel, but I am also nowhere near a pure empiricist. I don't have time to read everything now, but, I know your refutation of his Point 1 isn't itself on 100 percent pure ground. And your refutation of his Point 5 is on the wrong grounds. (And I hope this isn't part of your ground of attacking ontological arguments, either.) The better answer is that "existence" simply isn't a property.

And, it isn't. Whatever philosophy professors this guy had, their focus was on philosophers and issues from before the second half of the 20th century, if not earlier.

"Existence" is simply a descriptor. The simple fact of "being" (lowercase, no "Ground of Being") is not a property. To use the quasi-dialectic of the refutation, it really can't be a property. Besides, if this guy were as thorough-going a neo-empiricist as he claims to be, he'd accept that, from his Weltanschauung, there is no such thing as "properties" in general. 

He responded to me on Substack with more verbiage than in the original. On the first point, he said science is empirical not rational. Yes, but, Gödel, like his many forbearers, is offering a logical proof, not a scientific hypothesis. 

On the second? He says he could have cited Kant's famous phrase that existence is not a predicate. But, this is itself a fail. I wasn't referring to Kant, just as I don't refer to Kant in tackling Anselm's and other ontological arguments. Rather, I am riffing on existentialism. Existence simply "is." Hence it's not a property, and I make no reference to Kantian non-predicates.

But, I'm not going to respond to him, lest I get something even more long-winded back. See below.

A later, fuller reading?

Well, I first saw this piece about what Mr. Lyman calls "epirealism" and yes, we're in the land of pretty hardcore empiricism, updated for modern times. And, it's probably not worth arguing with his deconstruction of Gödel. And, as for who he is? By name, I've never come across him before.

Thursday, April 24, 2025

There's more to agnostics than meets the eye?

 Well, maybe, or maybe not, if the eye observing the agnostic is critically perceptive enough.

PsyPost confirms what I think many of us have already known.

Using "atheist" in its modern Western sense of "irreligious" (after all, tens if not hundreds of millions of Theravada Buddhists are quite religious and quite atheistic), it says that agnostics have a different psychological mindset than either atheists or the religious. 

Research findings indicate agnostics possess a distinct psychological profile characterized by higher indecisiveness, greater neuroticism, and a stronger tendency to search for alternatives in life compared to both atheists and religious believers. ... Agnostics exhibited a greater tendency to search for life alternatives, suggesting they maintain a broader orientation toward keeping options open rather than simply being uncertain atheists.

The study, from the UK, has enough participants to be reasonably solid versus small sample size issues.

The study also notes this:

Strong agnostic identifiers rated both themselves and others positively on traits associated with being a “nice person” without exhibiting the “better-than-average effect” seen in the other groups. This pattern may reflect a form of humility or reluctance to assert superiority consistent with the agnostic worldview.

Which in turn reflects on part of why people like me scorn Gnu Atheists, seeing them as the Western atheism version of the religiously fundagelical.

Speaking of?

How much can these findings about agnostics be extended to non-Gnu Atheists, especially the type of people listed in religious   atheistic (in the western sense, of course, excluding Theravada) spectra in old books, i.e., people who were once called "soft atheists"? That's probably a bit firmer than "uncertain atheists" but might still have people who have the humility issues locked in more than at least the Gnu, or fundamentalist, atheists. That said, the study doesn't talk about how the religiously fundamentalist compare to the religiously latitudinarian. Nor does it talk about how monotheisms compare to Eastern religions.

Thursday, January 16, 2025

Top blogging of 2024

 As usual, these are the most read pieces from last year, whether or not written in 2024. "Evergreen" ones will be noted by approximate date of publication.

At No. 10, a piece on a mishmash of problems at r/AcademicBiblical (which seems to continue to head downhill) and other biblical criticism subreddits.

At No. 9, since 2017, I have continued to say "Goodbye to 'History for Atheists'" and Tim O'Neill's Samuel Huntington-like Catholic Chistianism.

At No. 8, an exemplum of what's wrong with r/AB, "The Unbearable Lightness of Chris(sy) Hanson," who is independent, and arguably a researcher but most certainly not a scholar.

No. 7 goes to the world of aesthetics, which is part of philosophy, and specifically, to the world of classical music. That's my savage critiquing on how what could have been a good book about 20th century American classical music got butchered.

No. 6? Yes, until proven otherwise, Morton Smith is still the forger of Secret Mark.

No. 5? It's from five years ago, but trending because I posted it at the ex-Lutheran subreddit. The idea of "Gun Nuts in the Name of Luther" and its lies by omission on biblical interpretation will probably jump up more in Trump 2.0.

At No. 4, from early 2024? Contra philosophy of religion prof, it's not fundagelicals vs other Christians, and it's not even literal vs liberal religious believers in general. It's secularists vs everybody else on treating climate change as a climate crisis.

No. 3? Riffing on Rolling Stone et al, in 2023, I wrote about "Fascism in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod." I expect a resurgence in Trump 2.0.

No. 2 was also from 2023, and riffed on Paul Davidson of "Is That in the Bible," as well as, via him, my reading of Idan Dershowitz's then-new monograph on what Moses Wilhelm Shapira may actually have found. "Standing Josiah and Deuteronomy on their heads" tied together a number of threads in biblical criticism.

And at No. 1?

A very evergreen, 2007, "More proof the Buddha was no Buddha." (I have a new piece about Stephen Batchelor coming up in a week.) For more on my thoughts in general, click the Buddhism tag.

Thursday, February 01, 2024

It's secularists vs all others on taking climate change seriously

Don't let anybody tell you it's fundagelical Christians vs other Christians. Not even scholar of religion Ryan Burge. 

Don't let him, or even more, #BlueAnon Dems, riffing on him, tell you it's Democrats vs. Republicans.

Burge's own data refutes him. 

At a recent Roaming Charges for Counterpunch, Jeff St. Clair confirmed, with link to the original AP, that it's not Democrats vs Republicans.
Americans are less convinced that climate change is caused mostly or entirely by humans compared to data from recent years, declining from 60% in 2018 to 49% this year. Americans are less convinced that climate change is caused mostly or entirely by humans compared to data from recent years, declining from 60% in 2018 to 49% this year.

Followed by the nutgraf:

Democrats and independents are becoming less convinced that climate change is caused mostly by humans, while Republican attitudes remain stable.

So, most of that 11 point drop is from Dems. (I'd already anecdotally seen that in comments on a Nate Silver Substack.

That said, I talked more about that before diving into Burge on my main blog, and I want to go more here than I did there about the religious vs secularist angle here.

Religion scholar Burge, both an academic and a congregational pastor, looked at this issue from a religion angle, based on recent Pew survey data. Christians of all stripes take climate change no more seriously than do non-Christians of other world religions. But, that's not the biggie. It is that religious people in general take it less seriously than agnostics and atheists. And, Religious Right smears aside, your average Democrat is about as likely to be religious, and almost as likely to be Christian, as your average Republican.

 

As you see, this difference is HUGE.

Forget about BlueAnon Democrats, or even Burge to some degree, trying to spin this as evangelicals vs others. (I commented multiple times there, posting a link to my main site blog post the last time, and identifying as secularist, with a graduate divinity degree, and also as non-duopoly leftist, and politely but firmly calling out Burge for what I saw as bad framing. No response.) 

By percentage points, the "all religions" vs "agnostics" gap is bigger than "evangelicals" vs "all other religious." And, related to that, it's also not Democrats vs Republicans, and forget about that spinnning too. It's secularists vs. religious. By degree of difference, on the "extremely serious," the separation between atheists and either "nones" or "world religions" is GREATER than that between evangelicals and non-evangelicals.

Burge runs the religious breakdown through the parties filter, and in this case, I don't think that's good framing. More to the point, I don't think it's "fair" framing. He uses "independent" to cover anything not D or R, first. Second, he doesn't do a by party (plus independents, even if separating them by political stance) breakout of religiosity. It's true that "nones" are more Democrat than Republican, but that's also not as much as some might think, and "nones" is a catch-all anyway. Pew looks at "belief in God," but also with the same three-way breakout of politics.

I know that Burge has limited data on politics and religion when Pew has only the standard three-way breakout. He had the choice of doing less extrapolative guesstimates than he did, given that.

That said, he does also look at age issues related to this. In all religious groups, the younger are more worried than the older about climate change — except atheists, where it's even across the board.

That said, here's where I go even further in this direction in my main blog.

So, why do other world religions take this no more seriously than Christianity? 

This is speculation, but here's my thought.

Part of it may be this is a religious consensus in America, and other world religions are going along with Christianity: god will deliver us.

Part of that, though, may be already held doctrine or metaphysics within the other world religions.

Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews, broadly speaking, hold to some sort of quasi-armageddon ideas, even if not like the Jews of Qumran.

Islam also believes in a last judgement of some sort.

In both cases, per Isaiah as well as Revelation and words likely in the Quran, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. That said, the afterlife is pictured as in heaven/paradise, so a new earth doesn't matter anyway. Now, the more liberal-minded in these traditions, as with more liberal-minded Christians, may still preach the idea of "stewardship" not "dominion" over the current earth, but, believing in an afterlife, still don't have the same framing as secularists. (I use that term both because it identifies what I accept, not what others say I don't believe, and also because tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of Theravada Buddhists are also "atheist" by definition.)

And, with that, let's transition. 

Buddhism can ultimately preach the dogma of maya about climate change as part of maya about this world in general, especially suffering in this world. Yes, it can also talk about looking for Buddha-nature in every sentient being, such as, say, pika threatened with mountain-stranding species death by climate change. But, it's probably still maya at bottom.

Hinduism? A cyclical world. Eternal recurrence. So, climate change may be a problem now, but, in the long long term of Hindu eons? Nope.

That may be true of other religions, more "indigenous," of present or past that have similar ideas on the cyclical world of nature.

Modern New Ageism? Maybe the Marianne Williamsons of the world believe we just need to focus enough to "manifest" a world free of the worst of climate change. And, yes, cult of Marianne, as I've said on my main blog, she does believe, or has believed, in the idea of manifestation.

We secularists?

An issue like this is precisely why I became a leftist, not a liberal, when leaving the conservative Lutheranism, and conservative Lutheran socio-political mindset, of my upbringing as I was finishing up my seminary time.

THIS WORLD IS IT.

Period.

What else is there to say?

One final thing.

The "Nones."

Burge, and many others, in talking about the continued rise of the Nones, note correctly that most of them are the "spiritual but not religious types." In other words, they still have religious-type metaphysical beliefs. Also, many appear to be simply Christians without a denominational home. And, another piece by Burge shows that religiosity and spirituality track each other fairly closely. With all that in mind, that's background to why the climate issue shows why, at least on this political issue, the "rise of the Nones" is no big deal.

That said, the Nones, while once rising, plateaued during COVID; I haven't seen data since COVID went to endemic to see if that pause, or even slippage, has changed back to a renewed rise.

Thursday, January 18, 2024

Top posts, last quarter of 2023

 I don't do a monthly roundup, unlike at my main blog. But, here is a roundup of the last quarter of 2023.

 Again, not all of these may have been written in 2023, but they were the most read the last quarter.

We'll start from the bottom.

No. 10? Bart Ehrman goes from JW to Marcionite, comparing his second most recent book to his most recent. 

No. 9? An extended book review. "A Canticle for Leibowitz" was VERY interesting, but a set of secong and third thoughts led me to call out various things related to the ethnicity of that person Leibowitz.

No. 8 was one of many posts about stupidities at Reddit's r/AcademicBiblical, as I called out a shitload of stupidity in people commenting on a post about the Woman Taken in Adultery pericope from John.

No. 7? "Say goodbye to History for Atheists" was written in 2017, but has been updated more than once since then.

No. 6 was also from last year, and also from r/AcademicBiblical. and was various commenting fails by "Smart Fool" at the same subreddit.  

No. 5? The myth that Paul Hill from St. John's College wrote "Lean on Me," blogged years ago, started trending, in part because I posted a piece where I had dropped this link onto a St. John's College Facebook group.

At No. 4,  from a year ago January, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod President Matthew Harrison is either actually dealing with or else pretending to deal with Trumpian-aligned fascism in his denomination.

No. 3? Calling out Robert Sapolsky for being all wet on the hoary chestnut of "free will vs determinism," first for believing this dichotomy really exists and secondly for plumping for determinism.

No. 2 deserves a hat tip to Paul Davidson of "Is That in the Bible"? I riffed on a post of his, into standing both the kingship of Josiah and the development of Deuteronomy on their heads.

Drumroll ....

No. 1? As if a first round of proofs wasn't enough, "More proof the Buddha was no Buddha." Goes way back to 2007, but trended because I posted it to a subreddit in response to some Buddhist chuds. But, the comments long before that, like "Addie"? Claiming that the Buddha's teachings are ineffable sounds like Paul quoting Job in Romans. Nope on both.


Thursday, January 11, 2024

Top posts of 2023

 Again, not all of these may have been written in 2023, but they were the most read last year.

We'll start from the bottom.

At No. 10, from January 2023, me calling out a then-new moderator at Reddit's r/AcademicBiblical site as a moderator Nazi, for various good reasons, which eventually got me comment-banned there, and led to me starting my own, currently restricted group. 

No. 9 was also from last year and was various commenting fails by "Smart Fool" at the same subreddit. (There will be more; when none of the mods has an academic biblical degree, even at the bachelor's level, you get problems.)

No. 8? The myth that Paul Hill from St. John's College wrote "Lean on Me," blogged years ago, started trending, in part because I posted a piece where I had dropped this link onto a St. John's College Facebook group.

No. 7, from way back in 2009, trending because I posted it to various biblical subreddits, including with the Nazi. "Paul, Passover, Jesus, Gnosticism" ties together several critical threads.

No. 6? As if a first round of proofs wasn't enough, "More proof the Buddha was no Buddha." Goes way back to 2007, but trended because I posted it to a subreddit in response to some Buddhist chuds. But, the comments long before that, like "Addie"? Claiming that the Buddha's teachings are ineffable sounds like Paul quoting Job in Romans. Nope on both.

No. 5? Back to this past year. Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod President Matthew Harrison is either actually dealing with or else pretending to deal with Trumpian-aligned fascism in his denomination.

No. 4? Way back in 2006, but trending because I posted it to r/classicalmusic. "Mahler: the anti-Beethoven" invites discussion.

No. 3? "Say goodbye to History for Atheists" was written in 2017, but has been updated more than once since then.

No. 2 goes back to the world of Reddit. I called out anally-retentive mods at r/religion and (of course) got banned.

Drumroll ....

No. 1 again goes to r/AcademicBiblical, as I called out a shitload of stupidity in people commenting on a post about the Woman Taken in Adultery pericope from John.

Thursday, June 08, 2023

Yet other political nuttery OnlySky gets wrong

 I've repeatedly called out the Self-Besotted Philosopher, Jonathan M.S. Pearce, for his errors at the semi-Gnu Atheist site.

Now, time to further turn my guns on M.L. Clark.

I saw NAFO Fella and warmonger Nadin Brzezinski touting being on CounterSocial as well as Mastodon instead of Twitter. So, I googled, not having heard of it before. Saw this piece by Clark.

Problem? Yes, starting here:

The Jester, a prominent US hacker with a military background, made the choice to block six countries with high rates of cyber attack from the site: Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea, and Pakistan.

First, banning entire populations of those countries based on their governments' actions is not very secular humanist. Second? Doesn't the US do cyberhacks? Doesn't Israel? The flash-drive hack called Stuxnet says hell yes.

Thursday, May 04, 2023

Why a secularist ex-Christian thinks an atheist Jew celebrating Hanukkah is silly

 I had written a bit about this in a takedown piece (my second) about OnlySky a few weeks ago. I had been thinking about a more in-depth pullout about this issue anyway, but Jonathan M.S. Pierce, aka The Besotted Philosopher, getting tetchy about that led me to figure that to spite him as a sidebar, this was a good reason anyway.

And, with that, let's dig in.

Paul Golin, not previously critiqued by me, talked about why an atheist Jew celebrates Hanukkah. As I noted last month?

First, as far as being historical? The events afterward didn't play out exactly as presented in 1 Maccabees. I've blogged about that before. I blogged about that more at my main blog. He also ignores, contra Shlomo Sand and many others, as I have also discussed, that Hanukkah is originally pagan. Since the menorah ran dry, as in had no miraculous refill night after night, since Hanukkah has pagan roots and since, per Yonathan Adler, the Torah in general wasn't widely observed until AFTER the Maccabean revolt, if Golin is intellectually honest in act as well as thought, he's just doing a Jewish-tinged solstice event. And, yes, that is exactly what Hanukkah was as a pagan festival.

So, he's like an ex-Christian still celebrating Christmas but not fully secularizing it. 

It would be like me, if I still celebrated Christmas in anyway, not only talking about Santa, but talking about a nativity or religious Christmas carols, but yet saying "I'm a secularist."

Of course, there's a deeper issue at root.

And, that is the tension, and this one is not limited to the English language, between "Judaism" as a religion and "Jewishness" as an ethnic identity. Given that Paul said "there is neither Jew nor Goy," outside of White nationalists trying to exploit Christianity, it's neither a linguistic nor a deeper identity issue that Christians face.

Ergo, it's not an issue that ex-Christian secularists face.

Now, given that, per Adler, Hanukkah eventually led to Judaism as we know it today, but not necessarily Jewishness, is it better to for an atheist Jew to celebrate it than Passover? It also has religious, metaphysical elements (setting aside that it totally didn't happen), but it is arguably as much or more the origin of ethnic Jewish nationalism than is Hanukkah.

Of course, if you're an atheist celebrating ethnic nationalism, there's the deeper question of whether or not you're an atheist who's not a real secular humanist? I celebrate (not too loudly) the Fourth of July, but not German-American Day.

Saturday, January 07, 2023

Top blogging of 2022

An annual roundup of the most read blog posts of the past year. Not all were new to the past three months.

No. 1, "Libertarian pseudoskeptical pseudoscience," about Brian Dunning above all, but also the Novella brothers, Steve Pinker and others, from 2010, most certainly isn't new, but remains very true.

No. 2, "Do you have free will? Is that even a discussable issue?" also from 2010, is an extensive look at a critical area of philosophy.

No. 3, "Texas science ed director resigns over ID-creationist pressure" is even older, from 2007. I suspect it's gained new life due to the recent book bans plaguing public school and community libraries here in Tex-ass.

No. 4, "Antichrist vs the man of lawlessness vs the beast ..." was given new life by me when I posted this New Testament criticism piece to the Academic Biblical subreddit.

No. 5, "No true empiricist? Like no true Scotsman?" from this past year, was a takedown of British philosopher Julian Baggini, whether Scottish or not, over his alleged, but not actual, taking to task of Scottish philosopher David Hume over Hume's racism.

No. 6 is another oldie but goodie, "Say goodbye to History for Atheists." Note to Tim O'Neill: David Kertzer's newest book is yet more reason O'Neill needs to STFU on his attempts to defend the papacy against anti-semitism.

No. 7, "Did Biblical Edom exist? ...", from this past year, talked about the latest in biblical archaeology, and the latest in Israeli biblical archaeology, and the Zionism that appears to be behind some of that, and the Zionism that appears to be behind some of the reporting about it, as the ellipsis points lead you to read the full thing.

No. 8: "Coronavirus, philosophy, the noble lie, and the problem with Dr. Fauci (and his defenders)," written in the middle of 2020, and updated more than once, is indeed about "St. Anthony of Fauci," as I've taken to calling him, and his largely "Blue Anon" defenders, in the face of the big Platonic noble lie he told about masks early in the pandemic (and various less Platonic and less noble likes after that).

No. 9, "Split the log and I am there: Reflections on the Gospel of Thomas and beyond," was inspired by high-country hiking in the Rockies last summer. It includes photography of something that was part of a "secular spiritual experience," multilingual punning and more.

No. 10, "The great ahistoricity of Acts and radical thoughts about Paul's demise," is the third on this list from the past year and is exactly what its title says.

Thursday, June 23, 2022

Belief in God plunges

 This is NOT the rise of the "Nones," which seems to have plateaued during COVID, anyway.

And, this is just a Gallup poll, not a full Pew Research study. 

BUT?

It's definitely interesting to see that belief in god in America has reportedly PLUNGED in the last few years, down to just 81 percent.

And, as noted, this isn't about the Nones, who aren't necessarily disbelievers in god. They're just people who reject organized religion and related religious sociology ideas.

And, that's not all.

Interestingly, the drop in belief in god, by percentage points, is twice as great among women as among men. Whites are still more likely to be non-believers than non-Whites. The drop is much bigger among Democrats than Republicans. The "independents" is surely almost all people who think Democrats are leftists; it's not Libertarians, Constitutionalists, Greens, Socialists, etc.

The other facet I find interesting is that unbelief is statistically at the same level in central cities, suburban areas, and independent small towns and rural areas.

Belief in an interventionist theistic god is not high, even among believers in a god in general. This:

A follow-up question in the survey probed further into what Americans' belief in God entails. Specifically, the question asked whether God hears prayers and whether God intervenes when people pray. 
About half of those who believe in God -- equal to 42% of all Americans -- say God hears prayers and can intervene on a person's behalf. Meanwhile, 28% of all Americans say God hears prayers but cannot intervene, while 11% think God does neither.

Is also quite interesting.

The more religious, as well as the more Republican, are more likely among believers to believe in an interventionist god. No surprise there. Liberal Protestantism has long believed in a "mush god," so to speak, and as a metaphysical atheist as well as a sociological secularist, I get to say that.

This will surely have longer-term political ramifications, but not exactly as everybody may think. Not all atheists are secular humanists, to riff further on the distinctions at the end of the above paragraph. Many are libertarian not only on social issues but economic ones. In short, they could support an even more economically cruel America in decades ahead.

Thursday, April 07, 2022

Top blogging of January-March

 Unlike at my primary blog, I don't post here enough to do a roundup of top blogging, by readership, monthly.

Quarterly, though, yes.

So, let's dive in. (Note: Not all blog posts may be from the last three months; these are just the most popular.)

"'No true empiricist' ... like 'no true Scotsman'?" — my callout of Julian Baggini over David Hume, was No. 1.

No. 2? "Only Sky is getting shit wrong already." The successor to the atheist and agnostic bloggers of Patheos did little to impress me in the first month of its formation.

No. 3? I noted how the Westar Institute, the successor to the Jesus Seminar, had taken itself totally in academic and intellectual tank in a new book.

No. 4? "Baruch Espinoza remains excommunicated." No, really, he DOES, at the Amsterdam synagogue that tossed him centuries ago.

No. 5? More on the hypocrisy of Hume, this time as a psychologist.

No. 6? I had to laugh at the claim that in our minds, we don't think in any language. As it turns out? The piece had plenty to laugh at.

No. 7? From last year, my refutation of Jesus mythicists' claims that Nazarath didn't exist in the first century CE still trends.

No. 8? An old post about old libertarian pseudoskeptics like Brian Dunning and Michael Shermer will never get old.

No. 9? I remain glad I said goodbye to History for Atheists and its Catholic and papal apologist pseudo-atheist author.

No. 10? My callout of St. Anthony of Fauci for his Platonic noble lies (I later had follow-ups) remains popular.

Tuesday, August 25, 2020

RIP Ed Brayton

I've long since stopped following "movement" skepticism or most "organized" atheism, especially anything that tilts Gnu-ish. I knew Brayton had been in somewhat declining health for some time, indeed, even from when he split off from the Freethought Blogs he co-founded with P.Z. Myers.

And now I see he died the early part of August, three days after his last blog post. Unfortunately, his dying reportedly was not as pain-free as he had hoped.

My take? He'll be missed to a degree, but not as much a degree as many paeans would have you believe.

I wrote about problems at FtB when Ed was still large and in charge. But, he had his good points, and he wasn't fully a Gnu, and he called out Islamophobia in people like Dawkins and Harris, which is why some weren't fans of him at all.

That said, contra some full-on Gnus who disliked him, his battles against things like Islamophobia were battles for social justice.

The big thing I have against Ed, per the link above, is from my main blog, and that's Ed getting into bed with PZ in the first place. And, the loonies he let stay there far too long. And the hypocrisy a year before that. (Per the first link in the graf, he and PZ were both cheap asses to the late Leo Lincourt in not paying his surely reasonable price to make FtB better as a website.)

I also, per this piece, had disagreement with Ed on something related to the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. Can't remember what it was, but I think it was twosiderism, in that he believed not only Trump wanted Putin's help, but Putin gave it. Nope. It was probably related to his thinking being confined to within the duopoly parties, and being a Dem tribalist there, as he showed in discussing American exceptionalism.

Probably what I'll miss most about him is what most of us miss about ourselves later in life: The could have beens. That would mainly be, in Ed's case, a FtB that never had PZ involved in the first place. Can't say you weren't warned, Ed, from this small corner of the blogosphere; as I noted, from the start, you were turning over too many of the keys to PZ. Had that been the case, Greg Laden and Stephanie Zwan might not have been part of FtB, as well, and the problems never would have reached that point. In other words, a secular humanist version of Panda's Thumb or something.

Patheos wound up kind of fulfilling that, but not really. The Patheos "nonreligious" vertical doesn't have some of the broader secular humanism and civil liberties focus Ed did himself, and that he surely originally intended for FtB. Nor does it have a personal "face."

I've said before that being an atheist is no guarantor of either moral or intellectual superiority. Ed was above average on both, but again, nothing was guaranteed.

Thursday, January 02, 2020

Top blogging of 2019

 It was a very interesting year here by what readers liked.

A mix of debunking, takes on things Luther, pseudoscience debunking, philosophical hot takes and my poetry made up the 10 posts most read by readers this last year. More than half of the posts were pre-2019, but that's fine. Good stuff ages well.

No. 1? A decade-old blog post that I'd originally forgotten to put a header on and that eventually took off. (Spammers, maybe?) It was about "libertarian pseudoskeptic pseudoscience" and looked at some of the worst in pseudoskepticism, and sometimes pseudoscience, by leading libertarian lights in the Skeptics™ world like Brian Dunning and Michael Shermer.

No. 2? My take on a recent revelation that  early research on which Benjamin Libet based his "brain delay" studies, "undermines his research angle but also reinforces his philosophical scrivening." I chided some not to throw out the baby with the bath water; in other words, Libet ain't dead yet.

No. 3? My rewrite and update on Edward Arlington Robinson's classic "Richard Cory."

No. 4? A throwaway post, at least on the surface, from a decade ago. I encouraged intellectual types to be themselves in making small talk.

No. 5? An update to a 2017 blog post, where I further call out the cultural Catholicism lies of alleged atheist Tim O'Neill and his History for Atheists blog. (I found out, in the process of the update, that I'm far from alone.)

No. 6? Gun Nuts for Luther? Headquartered here in Tex-ass? My brother a member of their Facebook group? Whoda thunk? Here's the details.

No. 7? More Luther, this time my extended review of Lyndal Roper's 2017 biography. A solid 4-star work, but at the end of the year, with books newish and older, I still hadn't found a total 5-star tome.

No. 8? My uncle died just over a year ago. Rather than attend the funeral and be laden with religion and religious-based guilt-tripping, I wrote a poem about all that.

No. 9? Also from late 2018? I smacked around Andrew Sullivan for his latest (at that time) stupidities, and attached one of my most delightful Photoshoppings.

No. 10? Daring to touch the third rail of American foreign policy discussions, and based in part on my review of Yuval Noah Harari's "Homo Deus," I dared ask "Who's a Jew vis-a-vis Zionist claims?"

Finally, it was the most productive year blogging here since 2012. It's given me a diversion from my main blog. And, as 2019 readers can see, for the next two years, expect more Lutheran Reformation 500th anniversary posts.

Tuesday, November 12, 2019

Is post-Great Recession America going to be
like post-World War II Europe
on religious participation?

Per the latest Pew Research Center data on religion and American life, it sure looks that way.

The biggest takeaway from all this latest data? Millennials (yeah, those slackers, despite adults calling the younger generation slackers as far back as Aristotle) are a LOT less religious than their parents. A LOT less.

"Nones," the common word for those with no religious affiliation or identity, plus non-Christians, have as great an identity among Millennials as all Christian groups combined. No, really.



Now, this is a lot broader group than atheists or agnostics, despite Gnu Atheists talk of an "atheist surge," which has been going on for a decade or more now. (The talk, not any surge.) That said, self-identified atheists and agnostics have more than doubled over the 12-year range of the data, from 4 percent in 2007 to 9 percent in 2019.

It should be noted that "nones" may well have metaphysical beliefs. That's another reason for Gnus to stop poaching and crowing. Looking back 15 years or so, a woman on Match.com who originally wanted to meet me said "no" when she found out that "atheist" meant just that and NOT "spiritual but not religious" or Wiccan light or whatever. (It should also be noted, which Gnus don't, that millions of Buddhists around the world, mainly in the Theravada tradition, are both atheist and religious — and believe in metaphysical ideas, just not a personal god.)

That said, Nones are voting with their feet, not just their brains. In 2014, people who attend religious services just a few times a year first exceeded those who worship monthly or more. Among Millennials, it's just one-third who go to services once a month or more.

Among Americans overall, that growth is driven by a surge in those who NEVER attend, by self reporting. That's up to 17 percent.

Yes, one-sixth of Americans, even if they have some metaphysical beliefs (astrology, luck, Kabbalah or whatever) lurking somewhere, say they NEVER attend religious services. Related? Among those who say they attend once a month or more, the most ardent, the weekly attenders (or more) lost six percentage points, down to 31 percent. (If even that is correct; time and motion studies have shown that decades-old self-reported religious attendance surveys were consistently too high.)

Pew notes that the National Opinion Research Center, with different questions and framing, shows a similar number of Nones. It's at 22 percent for all ages vs 26 percent from Pew, even with somewhat different framing and questioning.

At the same time, Christian denominations seemed to have plugged the gap among the self-identified faithful. Worship rates among them have held pretty much steady over the past decade. But, with more and more of this being among the older generation, not just the Baby Boomers but the Silent Generation behind it, absolute numbers of Christians are declining due to death if nothing else.

That said, there are other takeaways. Despite the "give me that old time Christianity" (which type? Catholic? Lutheran? Reformed? Arminian? Anabaptist? Eastern Orthodox? Jacobite/Nestorian?) claim that it's those liberal Protestants (and cafeteria Catholics) who are all running away.

Not really.


Conservative mainline Protestants and conservative newer-line denominational Protestants (Southern Baptists, Disciples of Christ, etc.) are declining at almost the same rate as mainline Protestants (UMC, PCA, ELCA, Episcopaleans, UCC). I have theories on why.

They relate to the header.

It's true that the decline started before the Great Recession. It started with the slow recovery after the tech bubble burst in the early years of the George W. Bush presidency. But that recovery was anemic by historic standards, and the recovery from it and the post-9/11 slump (along with late-Clinton era and Bush era deliberately blind regulatory eyes) directly lead to the Great Recession.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:19, said:
If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone.

But I think the flip side holds true.

If you tell Millennials, just like Southern massas told slaves who weren't in a position to challenge them, that their hope should only be in and for the next life, they'll laugh at you.

And, it's not just today. It's like the claim in Isaiah 7:14, the famously mistranslated almah passage:
Therefore Yahweh Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

No "virgin" was involved, of course, nor was any metaphysically divine Messiah being predicted. King Ahaz of Judah, worried about being invaded by Rezim of Syria and Pekah of Judah, would take cold comfort in being told to wait 700 years for a Metatron or whomever.

Instead, Isaiah was proclaiming in all likelihood that the new wife of Ahaz's son Hezekiah was going to give birth within a year, and per the rest of Isalah 7, before the child got much past the terrible twos, Rezin and Pekah would be smashed. Ironically, that baby would be King Manasseh, deemed the worst of Judah's rulers by biblical chroniclers.

I digressed a bit, but for a point. Contra Christians proof-texting the Old Testament, proclamations ("prophecies") were made for the people to whom they were directed.

So, today, with Millennials almost certain to have it worse off than not just smug Baby Boomers, but also Gen X, any church that can't address the here and now will get tuned out.

And, that's more than a soup kitchen or food bank. It's a job bank. It's sobriety support that may not be explicitly AA. It's church-based yoga and other exercise programs and more. Also, as America gets more ethnically diverse and it hits more than 50 percent non-white babies being born now, if that old church not only doesn't offer this support network, it's a bunch of old white people, the Millennials will tune out. Related to that? Unless they're conservative white Millennials, if they don't see social justice being addressed at that church (or synagogue, Orthodox and Conservative Jews), they'll tune out. 

And obviously already are.

And, given that they're young and debt-burdened in an era where income inequality continues to grow, they won't even be at success Gospel churches.


After all, per what I said about warning Christians about proof-texting the Tanakh, the preachers ("prophets") of the prophetic books were about preaching social justice, not "making predictions." And much of that social justice preaching was about wealth that was unearned, unshared, or both.

The situation is not directly parallel to World War II in Europe (and maybe in Japan?) where destruction was massive, and where deprivation lasted more deeply, not to mention pre-war and wartime political fissures that make America's look mild. But I think there are parallels.

For fundamentalist-type Christians who consider Europeans who aren't godless Communists to be mostly godless mostly Socialist, you're wrong to a degree today on belief (and way wrong on politics) and of short time sensibility.

European religious involvement closely tracked America's until the Great Depression started. It diverged some degree during then and the rearmament period, stayed about the same degree of difference during the war, then diverged more yet after World War II. But that shows it was a process. Jews lost god in the camps. Many Protestant and Catholic young German males, and their anxious families, lost god in Russian prison camps. Yet others on the Western side of the Iron Curtain lost god in postwar capitalism. (OK, the parallel fails there.)

But, it is happening, and unlikely to change. That's my analytical notes, including to my conservative Lutheran family.

Beyond that? I welcome it.

It's probably kind of like cigarette smoking. If the Nones who truly don't go to church at all continue that through age 30, they'll likely never be there. And, with that, contra the fakery of Supreme Court backtracking in rulings like Town of Greece, at some point, the First Amendment's freedom of religion meaning true freedom from government propping up religion in any way will maybe start to be realized. Beyond totally banning pre-meetings prayers, etc., I'm talking about things like churches not getting any tax breaks beyond those extended to nonprofit entities in general and things like that.

==

Update, with some related stats? In 2019, 23 percent of Americans went to church every week. Sounds fairly devoted, right, every week? But 29 percent never went once. Texas, Bible Belt stereotypes aside, is no exception. This site says that it was less than 20 percent, and they're a religious website.

Saturday, March 23, 2019

Having fun with church names and more

As I've said a number of times here and elsewhere, I'm not a Gnu Atheist.

I understand psychology of religion, and its evolutionary background, for one thing.

For another, per religion and "-isms," and observations like that of Camus in "The Rebel," Gnu Atheism is itself quasi-religious in its sociology if not lacking metaphysical beliefs, and many Gnus might be lost without the idea of a god against whom to rebel.

I also appreciate the spirit of the psychology of religion. Between personal CDs and my YouTube library, I have a dozen or so requiems and nearly two dozen other masses, along with Jewish and Sufi Muslim sacred music.

That said, I have no problem poking the Religious Right in America in the eyeball when it leaves it open.

First, we have all these cowboy churches. No cowgirl churches? No cowboy plus cowgirl churches?

Should we have a Brokeback Jesus Cowboy Church then?

Second, we have all these "Bible" churches, like Believers Bible Church. Ignoring their own names for their assemblies, I'd just love to see a Believers Tanakh Church or a Believers Quran Church.

Within that genre, I saw the "Real Life Bible Church." As if a church is going to talk about fake life? This reminds me of all the restaurants offering "authentic" Mexican food. Like you're going to get Chinese food instead? Chow mein disguised as fajitas?

Third, these Bible verses that get quotes, especially the anti-abortion ones. (As most of the Religious Right is hugely pro-death penalty, hugely anti-gun control and hugely anti-national health care, these folks are anti-abortion. Not pro-life.) The ones that are full of lies because there's not a single verse in either one of the two Christian testaments that is explicitly about abortion.

Like Jeremiah 1:5:
Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.

I respond:
After I had been out of the womb long enough, and learned to read things on my own, and think things on my own, I knew that you didn't exist.

Friday, August 24, 2018

Does Texas really have that many atheists?

Near the end of its latest poll on the Beto O'Rourke-Ted Cruz Senate Race in Texas, Lyceum reports on the background of respondents, as most in-depth polls do.

There's this, on page 11: NINE percent claim to be atheist or agnostic. That's more than twice as many as who reported as Muslim. Throw out the 13 percent who were either "didn't know" (really?) or "refused," and you're at a little over 10 percent.

Really?

That said, counting 22 percent as either unaligned or third party, Lyceum claimed respondents were otherwise split, 39 percent each on Doinks and Rethugs.

Really?

But, let's get back to those atheists and agnostics.

I'm quite familiar with people misusing these terms to really mean "spiritual but not religious," or "irreligious vis-a-vis organized religion." (I experienced that very personally on Match.com. That particular conversation ended abruptly when the woman at the other end found out what atheism actually means.)

Let's say half our 10 percent falls there.

That's still 5 percent atheist or agnostic.

Let's say that 8 percentage points of the 13 percent refusniks are "nones," as are all 9 percent, in the original number, of alleged atheists or agnostics. Then, one-sixth of Texans are "nones."

That leads me to a piece by Psy Post. Until Friday, it seemed to me to be a pretty good psychology popularization blog and website. John Horgan is among its Twitter followers.

But then it blared: You live longer if you're religious.

Without saying that all we have on that is statistical correlation, not causal correlation, and without, in the western tradition, comparing today's US to today's Europe on that. (Well, it did kind of say that, but after the "blaring.")

Given that the power of intercessory prayer has been disproven by double blinded studies, in fact, we can say that almost certainly, it is NOT a causal correlation.

Add to that the fact that, especially in small towns, "church" and non-church general religious affiliation adds a degree of "community" to life for many people, especially in a place like red-state Texas. Also note that, especially in smaller communities, for those in need, many food banks and other forms of charitable outreach are church-based, or if not so explicit, at least religiously themed.

The only way to do a halfway scientific version of such a survey would be to look at churched vs unchurched people who are both also members of other organizations, like Rotary, Kiwanis, etc. And, you'd have to use more than obits. You'd have to use longitudinal time management research to confirm how often said people actually attended both churches and their social clubs.

And, there's been plenty of empirical research on the reality of a god already.

Speaking of empirical matters, we do also know that, by percentage of respective ethnic groups, more of those atheists are white than black or hispanic, but we also know that young blacks are consciously starting to catch up on leaving church, in part because African-Americans are finding more "secular" leaders willing to speak on "spiritual" issues. Like LeBron. Or Kaepernick. This is even as Congressional Black Caucus leader Jim Clyburn will suck up to Trump as much as those black ministers, to avoid churches paying new taxes.

Anyway, back to the original.

I highly doubt 10 percent of Texans are atheists or agnostics. I think there's probably a mix of bad polling methodology and "nones" using either "atheist" or "agnostic" as a synonym for "irreligious."

Well, stop it!

Monday, April 10, 2017

Say goodbye to History for Atheists (updated)

I keep a fairly slim blogroll, as well as general webroll, on this and other blogs. But, blogs I link to, or even incorporate into my feed list, aren't necessarily ones I totally agree with. I'll keep ones that I find stimulating when in disagreement, especially if the disagreement is more on matters of philosophy rather than empirical facts in the hard or social sciences, or interpretation thereof. That's especially true as long as exchanges between me and other authors remain halfway personable.

Well, Mr. Tim O'Neill's History for Atheists blog, which had been linked here, is gone again. (He'd originally been placed here and one other blog after he'd commented favorably on something I wrote.)

His blog is primarily about refuting Gnu Atheist claims about religious figures and ideas in history. And, on people such as Giordano Bruno, he has some good refutation. (And he's not alone in that.)

I won't link to him, though.

When he's wrong, he can sometimes be howlingly wrong. And a new update only underscores that.

And he was, a month ago, in trying to defend the papacy in general, and Pope Pius XII in particular, against charges of anti-Semitism.

One medieval papal bull he cited was honored as much in the post-Crusades-era breach as in the observance. And ...

He refused to even discuss the much later, 1860s-era, Papal States kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara. And, it's hugely relevant to refuting his claims.

So is Catholic hierarchy in the US ignoring physical anti-Semitism as late as World War II. (About halfway down the piece.)

He refused to discuss books by professional historians — non-Jewish as well as Jewish — that undermine his claims about Pius XII. And, I've read several such books.

One such book is "The Popes Against the Jews," just read and reviewed by me here. Its author, David Kertzer, previously wrote "The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara" and "The Pope and Mussolini," both of which I have read, and reviewed the latter here. (Pius XI comes off as better than Pius XII, but that's praising with faint damns one of the worst popes of the last 200 years or more. And don't forget that Pius XII, as Vatican Secretary of State, negotiated and signed the Reichskonkordat.) And Kertzer won a Pulizer for "The Pope and Mussolini," dude.

Then, he says, after I told him I hadn't listened to his podcast attached to the post — but without answering at all to Mortara, high-placed priests' post-WWII involvement in the "ratline" and more — his only answer is "go listen" to the podcast" followed by a stream of insults.

Update, Sept. 8, 2020: Kertzer has a new piece in The Atlantic, based on material now available from the Vatican archives, about Pius XII's silence about two Jewish survivors from the death camps forcibly baptized in France, as well as offering more information about Pius and the deportation of Rome's Jews. It further removes the mask from O'Neill's bullshit. On the two children, Pius himself, with the Curia, acted just like Pius IX on Mortara.

And, shock me, when I presented O'Neill with this on Twitter?
I used Price (who I know has scoffed at O'Neill; see below) as one example of several. I then responded:
There we are. Same old person.

Anyway, read away. It's some very good stuff, and sad stuff, by Kertzer. It's also VERY in-depth. That Pius XII would pull this nearly 100 years after Mortara is disgusting.

Kertzer had an earlier piece in March, talking about the opening of the Vatican archives. Per his wondering there:

With the new piece, we need not wonder now. Pius XII's postwar actions are clearly those of an antisemite.
Public attention, naturally enough, is focused on the war years. But the postwar years are likely to provide their own surprises and insights. In Europe, this was a tense and eventful time.

And, I'm hoping he finds enough for a new book.

Back to the original. Well, Tim, I've got a response back for you.

Go fuck yourself. (Repeatedly, per the update.)

Beyond that, my most charitable explanation is that, even though he's an atheist himself, he's still some sort of "cultural Catholic."  Or, more accurately, given his much higher regard for Rodney Stark than I have, perhaps he's a "Christianist" in the same vein as Samuel Huntington et al. In that case, his "History for Atheists" is, throughout, designed to be apologetics, not pedagogics. Light bulb just came on as part of the update. The fact that he attempt to gaslight people who have the goods on him make this clear. I also was just reminded of a piece I wrote last year about Catholic projectionism of some of their own cultural DNA onto Jews. Indeed, I mentioned him there, but forgot to link it.

If it's the same Tim O'Neill being referenced here on an online forum, he's also wrong about other issues related to the Holocaust. (O'Neill claimed no Nazi ever denied the Holocaust, only claimed they didn't know. He's refuted kind of well, but not as well as people there think. WARNING that I should have put up long ago. It's a "revisionist" site that I in no way agree with in general, and is full of conspiracy theorizing as part of that.)

Among other issues related to Nazi Germany he's wrong about? Hitler did not come to power via a "backroom deal." Instead, he was duly accepted as chancellor by President Hindenburg as the agreed-upon representative of a parliamentary coalition. That's the way chancellors, premiers and prime ministers are selected. And, his particular selection, as far as negotiations between coalition partners, was no more of a backroom deal than with any other parliamentary coalition in Germany or any other country.

(Oh, and others besides myself, like Robert Price and friends of his, know this dirty part of O'Neil. So do Quora commenters. Oh, geez, they kick him in the nuts over there. But, per somebody posting a link to this post on a June 2019 O'Neill butt-kissing of popes, he still can't let go, including letting go of the idea that his podcast is SO precious, and cannot be typed up and transcribed, so people MUST listen to it.)

 Update, April 19, 2021: What's really behind this, IMO, is a "no true Scotsman" type argument. I say that as I am in the middle of a Twitter argument with Andrew Sullivan, over a claim that because he's a Catholic, he can't be a eugenicist. Not to mention, for both O'Neill and Sully, but the German Catholic Church, decades later, copped an official plea of guilty to complicity with Hitler.

Update, July 7, 2023: Forgot to add earlier that David Kertzer has another new book further kicking O'Neill in the nads.

Update, June 5, 2024: O'Neill likes to be hair-splitting, like in this piece claiming that the closure of the Platonic Academy by Justinian wasn't all that. First, I presume that the likes of Grayling, like me, knew this wasn't the Academy actually founded by Plato. Second, it doesn't matter that the second Academy was a fount of Neoplatonism that Plato might not recognize. What matters is its closure by Justinian was part of a larger assault against philosophy. It was part of Justinian's MO in general, as documented in a new biography. O'Neill eventually sort of gets there. Wiki gets a much shorter summation without O'Neill's axe-grinding.

Finally, as for his about? He's lying on the last bullet point, of course. There's various degrees of strawmanning otherwise. And, the biggest reason I know he's a fucking liar? Search his site for Kertzer; you won't find him. You also won't find him on O'Neill's other site.

Finally, even though he taught at an unaccredited theological school, calling Price "an amateur or hobbyist" is risible.

Monday, September 09, 2013

Two Lutherans, now atheists — different paths, same end

A very nice brief biographical piece here in Salon. Author Ed Suominen (nice Finnish Lutheran name!) explains how studying science with an open-mind, evolution above all, led him to become an atheist. It includes a brief excursus on why fundamentalists, in his opinion, feel compelled to defend a literal creation story, etc.

Here's the short and sweet:
Outsiders sometimes scratch their heads about the dogged insistence of creationists that Adam and Eve actually existed 6,000 years ago in a perfect garden without predators or pain, until they took Satan’s bait and bit into a world-changing apple. How is it, 100 years after Darwin, that we are still fighting about what will be taught in biology classes? Why, in their determination to refute evolution, do some Christians seem intent on taking down the whole scientific enterprise?

The answer lies in Suominen’s lived experience. As he puts it, “You don’t have original sin without an original sinner. And without original sin…you don’t need a redeemer.” In other words, the central story of Christianity, the story of a perfect Jesus who becomes a perfect human sacrifice and saves us all relies on the earlier creation story.
His basic take is that, once he moved off his particular brand of conservative Lutheranism, Laestadianism (think a more Finnish version of Lutheran Pietism), he couldn't stop at halfway houses of more liberal Protestantism.

He talks also about that:
I enlisted my friend Robert M. Price to see if there was any plausible theological solution. Dr. Price had been serving as a sort of spiritual therapist for me, helping me deal with the issues I’d been finding with my religion once evolution had “cracked the walls of my information silo,” as you adeptly put it. At this point, our work together turned into a full-blown writing project, and together we plowed through books by Francis Collins, John Haught, Kenneth Miller, and others who claimed to make sense of Christianity in view of evolution. But to us, despite trying to approach the theology with an open mind (which Price does even as an atheist), the only thing sensible about their books were their eloquent defenses of evolutionary science.
I would have to agree, having gone down a broadly similar route.

My departure point, as a graduate divinity school student, was somewhat different.

For various reasons, I realized the critical method of studying the bible was correct, and that I couldn't accept literalism for that reason.

I then asked, how do liberal mainline Protestants and non-literalistic Catholics decide to draw their "boundary lines" about what's inside the doctrinal and faith tent, if not all of it is.

For example, if Israel didn't migrate out of Egypt, and any "Israel" was formed by natural cultural evolution, and other non-divine factors, then how can we see it as a "chosen nation"? And then, if it's not a chosen nation, that also affects the Christian claim to be the "new Israel."

Then, if you believe New Testament writers were mining the Old Testament for "proof quotes" to make sense of the tragic death (whether as a Zealot-type rebel, an unfortunate hasid, or whatever) of their leader, and you accept this was all likely after the fact stuff, then why should you believe the death of Jesus (if he even existed, but that's tout court for this discussion) mean anything?

I realized, without becoming snooty over it, and without the bombast of a P.Z. Myers lumping liberal non-literalists with fundamentalists (more on that below) that the answer was ... those things didn't mean anything.

The answer was that fancy theological language like "Ground of Being" was vacuous. (In the east, the need for reincarnation is vacuous if you reject the idea of karma, so I'm not just picking on Western monotheism.)

Arguably, it's not as bad as the Omphalos hypothesis:
The most robust attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable may well be Philip Gosse’s “omphalos” idea that the universe was created recently with the appearance of great age. Of course, God created Adam with a navel and trees with rings! They wouldn’t be recognizable without those “retrospective marks,” after all. (Christians are faced with the same issue concerning Jesus and his magic Y chromosome.) It’s ridiculous and reduces God to a cosmic cosplayer, but at least it doesn’t try to dismiss all of the Bible’s clear teachings about a young earth and special creation, or fancifully reinterpret 2,000 years of Christian theology.

True on that. But then, per the "cosplayer" comment, we're really in Wonderland.

But, I want to pick up on that "magic Y chromosome."

I'm not a basher of the non-fundamentalist types, but if you are a more liberal Protestant, and yet you believe "Son of God" has some metaphorical meaning, how do you get around this? That said, allegedly, a woman in Dresden gave birth at the end of World War II, nine months after the firebombing, to a baby who was allegedly her spitting image when she grew up, with the woman saying she hadn't been sexual. Possible? Well, actually heat applied the right way can cause female rabbits to give birth by parthenogenesis, kind of like Dolly the cloned sheep. But, no gospel writer ever said, "And Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Bunker Buster Bomb."

(Update to the above: Forgot to mention it, in case there are any people who don't understand parthenogenesis as the actual biological happening, but ... it means female-only offspring, which means it helps Christians not one bit with Jesus and his magic Y chromosome.)

This does lead to other questions ... snarky yet serious at the same time.

If an immaterial, metaphysical soul is formed at the moment of a mother's egg cell being fertilized by a father's sperm cell, what happens with Siamese twins? Does one soul split into one and three-quarters?

Or, the other way around. When you have twins (many human conceptions are actually twins, and usually from dual conceptions at the same time) but one twin gets a bit bigger a bit faster, and ultimately swallows the other, which becomes a "teratoma," usually, what happens to that second soul? Does it get swallowed, too, by the first soul? Or a "mosaic," with the second individual more blended into individual cells?

And, that's not Lutherans, not just Christians, and not just one-off this life and heaven types. Whether full "soul" or just a Buddhist "life force," you have the same problems with this issue, much as you'd like to not admit it. (I'm jogged into this by just having blocked a semi-trollish Hindu on Reddit.)

Wednesday, November 28, 2012

So, how good is #Faitheist? What’s it about?


Chris Stedman/Via Center for Inquiry
If you’re not familiar with that name, it appears to have been something largely coined by Chris Stedman, now the recently published author of a book by that name, which is what this blog post is all about.

First, some personal identification.

Regular readers of this blog, or at least the part of it that deals with religion, philosophy and metaphysics, know that I normally don’t have a lot of use for the New Atheist, or Gnu Atheist, “movement.” I consider them too confrontational, for one thing. I consider them too … fundamentalist, to be wry, secondly. Third, unlike them, I have no desire to “evangelize” religious America, let alone conduct an intellectual browbeating quasi-jihad.

Well, that’s where Chris generally comes from.

That said, is Faithiest the book about branding Faithiest the idea as well as telling Stedman’s own quite interesting journey, which includes his gay sexuality and coming terms with that while spending part of his time growing up in a conservative evangelical church?

Well, two different reviews have two different takes.

First, at Skepticblog, Daniel Loxton has a quite sympathetic review

Here’s the heart of Loxton’s review:
Like his other writing and interfaith work, Stedman’s book calls powerfully for a more compassionate, more nuanced, more accepting dialogue between people of faith and people who have none. Given the strong anti-theistic sentiments common currently in movement atheism and the atheist blogosphere, this has not too surprisingly made Stedman a somewhat controversial figure in atheist circles. Some place him as part of an established narrative—a proposed distinction between atheist “firebrands and diplomats.”

“We need both,” it is often said, “firebrands and diplomats.” Working together—the soft sell and the hard sell, the good cop and the bad—these complementary approaches may do more to bring down religion than either prong of the attack may accomplish on its own. “We’re all part of the same movement,” say these voices. “We all want the same thing.”

But that’s just it. We don’t all want the same thing.

The radical function of Stedman’s Faitheist is to underline that rarely-stated truth. Atheism is actually not a duopoly of firebrands and diplomats. These two types of evangelists no more describe “both kinds” of atheist than “country and western” describes “both kinds” of music.

Stedman explicitly rejects “the demise of religion” as a goal he does not share, and rejects the firebrands versus diplomats dichotomy as well. “I believe how pushy should we be? is the wrong question,” he writes. The better question is how do we make the world a better place?
I would agree with all of that, with one notable exception that is to Loxton’s one claim.

I’m not any kind of atheist evangelist myself, whether a firebrand or a diplomat. Now, if Stedman is (I don’t know about Loxton) then I part company with him there, and if “Faitheist” is part of a soft sell version of atheist evangelism, no.

Instead, like Garbo, respect my boundaries, both as an individual and as a member of society (no creationism in public schools, etc.) and I otherwise want to be left alone, and leave you alone, too.

Meanwhile, Simon Davis, guest-blogging at FreethoughtBlogs, the ground zero of Gnu Atheist bloggers, has a different take — one more critical, but not stridently so.

Davis first says he thinks Stedman overdramatized his encounter with an atheist group in Chicago.
The panelists I spoke to disagreed with Stedman that “Throughout the program, religion — and religious people — were roundly mocked, decried, and denied.” (p. 2) The panel format was chosen precisely so the discussion wouldn’t be one-sided, though there was one panelist who was vocal in her position that local humanist groups (of which one of the panelists was a member) were too supportive of religion. A month later, Stedman also hosted one of the panelists on the Chicago Public Radio show he was helping to produce at the time with IFYC, which seems like an odd thing for him to do if he felt this person would mock, decry, and deny the religious.
Interesting, to say the least.

Second, Davis points out a little bit of elision Stedman does of a famous Carl Sagan quote, while noting that the version he has, or similar, has floated around the Internet.

Ditto on this Sartre quote Stedman uses:
“That God does not exist, I cannot deny. That my whole being cries out for God, I cannot forget.”
Several commenters, including one French-fluent, say Sartre never said this. In fact, one calls it Stedman’s wish-fulfillment:
I think this is a key to Stedman’s thinking. My armchair psychoanalysis is he has a god-shaped hole in his psyche which he’d like to fill but can’t because he intellectually rejects gods. Religion is emotionally satisfying for him but intellectually without basis. Hence his interfaith work and his criticisms of anti-theist atheists like PZ Myers and the other gnu atheists. We reject the totality of religion while he embraces the emotional (and possibly the social) aspects. He likes religion (except for the god parts) so he’s angry at those who don’t like it.
I think that’s over the top. I like certain things about religion, and, in non-fundamentalist incarnations, don’t come close to hating it.

At the same time, do I wish that at least some of the metaphysical promises, or even the psychological ones, of religion actually were true? Yes, yes, and yes.

An atheist who claims with a straight face not to have any such yearnings is a Gnu Atheist squared.

Anyway, what spurred Davis was this post by Stedman at Salon, an excerpt from the book. Read it for yourself.

The one other important part, related to Davis, is where the word “faitheist” comes from, and per this post here, whether there is some “branding” by Stedman afoot.

My final takeaway from Davis is that Stedman, according to him, doesn’t actually personalize the book as much as he could. For example, Davis said he’d like to hear more of how Paul Kurtz influenced him.

Giving some ammunition in support of Davis and commenters there that Stedman is in a journey that is still very much in media res?

First, his own history. Per Davis, from the book:
In chapters 2-6, Stedman writes about growing up poor and attending a Unitarian Univeralist church before joining an Evangelical congregation in middle school right around the time that he realizes that he is gay. … After his mother discovers that he is gay, he begins to become a part of a more liberal Evangelical community that is welcoming of LGBTQ people.

He then attends a Augsburg College–a Lutheran school in Minneapolis–with the purpose of becoming a minister. It is in his first year there that he arrives at atheism “through intellectual and personal consideration.” (p. 84). This leads him to spend the rest of his time as an undergraduate with animosity towards religion, which has largely subsided by the time he graduates. After college he spends the winter in northern Minnesota town of Bemidji “working with Lutheran Social Services as a direct service professional for adults with learning disabilities” (p.108). He says it is during this time that “Though I didn’t have the words for it at the time, I was beginning to cultivate my Humanistic worldview.” (p. 109). Reading Eboo Patel’s Acts of Faith is what convinces him to do interfaith work and move to Chicago where IFYC is based while attending Meadville Lombard–a Unitarian seminary.

Interestingly, even though he has both an undergraduate and a Master’s degrees from religious institutions where he interacts with diverse groups of people and studies the teachings of numerous religions, those teachings aren’t directly reflected in the memoir.
That is quite a journey, and as with humanism, if Davis is write, the book is poorer indeed for Stedman not showing more of the influences on him.

It also, again, could be an eyebrow-raiser as to the purposes of the book.

Second , the book is only 208 pages.

Third, Stedman’s a … young pup! He was only 24 when he wrote the book.

Fourth, we have the example, recently, of a Harvard student, one who had gained some prominence among young atheists, deciding she was no longer an atheist and instead becoming some sort of fideist Catholic.

Now, I’ll admit that, like with John Loftus, I may have a twinge or two of jealousy over Stedman. I’ll also admit that I’ve not read the book yet, but that I think Chris is a decent guy personally, and that he’s a Facebook friend.

That all said, because of my three caveats above, I’ll say that Davis probably, at least, isn’t all wrong in his review. Stedman may be dramatizing his journey a bit. And, there may be some “branding” behind that move.

I mean, his brief mini-bio on Amazon hints at why he might want to do that:
Chris Stedman is the Assistant Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University, the emeritus managing director of State of Formation at the Journal of Inter-Religious Dialogue, and the founder of the first blog dedicated to exploring atheist-interfaith engagement, NonProphet Status. Stedman writes for the Huffington Post, the Washington Post’s On Faith blog, and Religion Dispatches. He lives in Boston.
Let’s be honest. That’s heady stuff for a 24-year-old who might well be more ambitious than he lets on in polite company. Especially when he was writing for the On Faith blog back at least at 2009.

For more about his thought in general, here’s Stedman’s blog.

For the book’s website, including a biographical page, go here. There’s more biography at his CFI page.

Anyway, I am, as of this time, still of multiple mindsets about the book. It sounds interesting. But, while Davis cuts too hard, maybe it’s not as deep as it could be. And, per myself, maybe it is a “branding” book.